RIP JIM RICKER  (by: M. McDonald  -   12/17/2008)

I'd only met Jim and his kids a few times growing up, but my parents were best friends with him throughout their childhood. I know he was a wonderful guy who loved his family. I am so sorry to hear what happened. And to have passed away as a reward for volunteering is even more upsetting. I hate that so many people are arguing about statistics on this page... imagine if it was your significant other or brother who died in this plane... the last thing you want to hear is people arguing about statistics. My prayers and thoughts go out to the Ricker family during the holidays and throughout the next few years. I'm so sorry you have to experience this.

Jim Ricker  (by: Steven Kaiser  -   12/17/2008)

I had the great honor to personally know Jim for more than 20 years. I have traveled the world for my Corporation and I have to say that of all the amazing people I've encountered in my journey's Jim Ricker was definately the guy that you would remember for being the life of any party and the most generous individuals one could ever meet. I am truely going to miss your never ending smile and that laugh will never be duplicated. My prayers go out to your family! Heaven is lucky to have you. God Speed Jimbo!

Mr Ricker  (by: Pete Z.  -   12/16/2008)

Mr Ricker was a family man who will be unbelievably missed. I feel for his wife, daughter, and son!!

Jumping to conclusions  (by: Simon  -   12/15/2008)

It is interesting to me that so much is being read into this accident with without knowledge of the pilot, the aircraft or the circumstances. It is not uncommon for the NTSB to take a year before releasing their final report. It is more common to find speculation on the cause of the accident to be unrelated to the NTSB's findings. As to the posts, well it seems like they are all over the place. First off, is flying with the airlines dangerous? No. Although accidents do happen (Averaging 1 in 500,000 flights), last year, there was not one fatality in the US in 19 million flight hours. Do you feel lucky? Or unlucky? Really, really, really unlucky more like it. Next, is flying general aviation dangerous? Specifically, light planes with a few seats flown by uncle Bob? It is more dangerous than the airlines and there are many factors that come into this. Training is one. ATP pilots are highly trained and have to go through recurrent training regularly. And there are two of them up front, which make a huge difference in IMC. The FAA requirements for carrying paying passengers are more stringent. The planes are more capable, with anti-icing equipment, better avionics, autopilots and able to fly above most weather. But most importantly, a conservative mindset is ingrained in the mind of an airline pilot. It is optional for a private pilot. This last point plays a major role in who ends up in the NTSB records. Anyone who analyzes the causes of general aviation accidents realizes very quickly that while a significant percentage of accidents can be attributed to certain types of pilot error, e.g. Buzzing, VFR into IMC etc., many accidents come as a result of multiple causes. Someone made this point below and it is a good one. Quite often, accidents are a sequence of events involving poor judgment. Many things can go wrong during a flight. On their own, they be as trivial as nuisance value, e.g. A window that occasionally opens due to a faulty latch. Not safe, but not it itself deadly. However, if the door opens after takeoff like it did on my friend and it sucks all your flight gear and approach plates out when he was flying single pilot IFR in a turboprop into IMC, then you have a bigger problem (This was before the days of GPS BTW). More uncommon are accidents caused totally by mechanical malfunction, such as a double vacuum failure in IMC. But they do happen (There is at least one NTSB record on this). I was flying in a Civil Air Patrol mission on Saturday and the Attitude Indicator went. Things happen. It is the judgment at the point of failure that gets you on the ground safely. Sometimes your are just out of luck. Let's just wait until the NTSB has had a chance to look at the facts.

C Preston "Pilot Error"@ to Jeff Dimov.  (by: M Baker  -   12/15/2008)

Since we are using the statistics from the NTSB, it is onle proper to use their definitions. I believe the term is pretty staight forward, unfortunetly my search engine on my computer today did not seem to cooperate inorder to site their complete definition, but if you go to their site I am confidant you will have better luck than I did. It is true that recently investigators now contribute accidents to a series of events and not just one factor. That being said, it is the pilot who is most frequently starts the sequence of events or chooses the wrong option during the sequence resulting in the accident. Also let me make clear when I state the I am ONLY a private pilot, and far from being the final authority on the matter. Lord knows I have made my fair share of mistakes which fortunetly have not ended in a traject ending. I also echo your lack of recent flying hours and would be a hazard to others. The same goes for diving. I would also like to express my appreciation to you for an event that happened more than twenty years ago. When you owned a dive shop I stopped by one Saturday to buy a mask for my daughter and realized I left my money at home. You surprized me by giving the masked anyways and told me to pay you later. I did return that afternoon and slipped the envelope with the money under your door. I never had the chance to actually thank you for allowing me to do so and to thank you for your confidence in me. And to Jeff Dimov their is no confusion on my part as to the difference between Commerical Aviation (schedual airlines) and General Aviation, all aviation except military and schedual aviation, per AOPA. Also would like to express my Greetings for the holiday and hope the New Year is good to all!

Seeking information  (by: News-Sun staff  -   12/15/2008)

The News-Sun is trying to find out more about Mr. Weener and Mr. Ricker in order to put a human face on this tragic event. Anyone who knew either of the men is asked to call Christopher Tuffley at 863-385-6155, ext. 544 or e-mail him at christopher.tuffley@newssun.com. Our condolences and prayers go out to the family and friends of the victims.

Preston  (by: Concerned 4 Our County  -   12/15/2008)

With all due respect, you are not an investigator for the FAA or the NTSB. You are just a person, like the rest of us that post on here. So your "evidence gathering" line does not really apply here. But you are free to speak your mind here, like the rest of us normal folks. Merry Christmas, Preston

Comm vs General  (by: Jeff Dimov  -   12/15/2008)

I noticed someone making comparison between Commercial and General Aviation statistics and confusing the two, in odreder to support their agenda/opinion.

Both/And  (by: G. Baker  -   12/15/2008)

Certainly it is possible to BOTH improve investigations AND pray for others in loss. Let those who need to investigate properly do so and let those who desire to go to the Lord on behalf of relatives who must keep on living with such loss, do so as well. There is nothing here to argue about.

M Baker & NTSB  (by: Preston H. Colby  -   12/15/2008)

It could be that we are both addressing the same factors but using different nomenclature. Please define what you mean by "pilot error" and what you understand the NTSB to mean as "pilot error" in their post incident reports. Most aircrashes are cascade events, with some triggering causation, followed by a series of incorrect or inappropriate human factor response/option selection and/or equipment unresponsiveness/failure. I also have my private ticket (VFR and IFR + multiengine and type ratings) with 40 years of experience, this month. However, my airtime and airman skills are now so out of date, I would be a hazard to any other airman, until I get my skills current. PHC

P. Colby NTSB  (by: M Baker  -   12/14/2008)

Mr. Colby, I have examined the NTSB accident reports and as I stated earlier the primary cause of accidents is pilot error (80-90%+) in the 2000's. You are correct in stating that the aging fleet is a problem, particularly in small private aircraft, but no one knows when exactly an aircraft airframe is no longer safe. As I said earlier, this aircraft was at least 50 years old and last manufactured I believe in 1964. Gathering evidence after a crash is very important, but unfortunately the NSTB does not have enough personnel to dedicate the neccisary time to thoroughly investigate small aircraft accidents. And by the way, I do not work for the government in any way and I am just a private pilot.

Concerd 4 Our County  (by: Preston H. Colby  -   12/14/2008)

I'm sure that the families are devastated, so much in fact that I doubt they are reading this or any Forum. But nobody has answered my question. Let me put it differently: If you want to prevent future death and injury you have to gather evidence while it is fresh. It takes hours for NTSB to get a GO TEAM to most General Aviation sites. As far as I know, the HCSO has NO training in aircrash evidence gathering or preservation, but then neither do bystanders. What's more important praying for the dead or trying to prevent more death and injury? Just simple field triage. Put it another way, after a fatal motor vehicle accident do you form a prayer circle or prevent another accident. I understand that some people react with emotion rather than logic,

M Baker  (by: Preston H. Colby  -   12/14/2008)

M. Baker - actually both the USCG for coastal waters and US Air Force for inland incidents contract with us for personnel to be trained, since they have neither the experience, time or instructors to provide the indepth programs we offer. They do have generalist water survival programs, but that's for when their aircraft are downed. We do commercial carrier aircraft since they come in a multiciplicty of models, sizes, seat configuration,et al. We also train all major US air carrier airline in-house Instructors on rotating basis. If you thought I said we conduct post incident causation investigations, we don't. That is the domain of NTSB and FBI. We only address, in our training, how best to preserve possible evidence at an aircrash. Life salvage (Rescue) is our bailiwick (expertise), however we work closely with NTSB in determining human survival factors for "lessons learned" training of ARFF responders for future aircrash incident fatality reduction. We now maintain a "GO TEAM" for southeastern US incidents. Because of ValueJet in the Everglades clusterfunction. . We responded to Chalks seaplane crash recent crash in Miami harbor. Airframe failure is a far more common cause now, than in the 1990's, due to the aging fleets, reduced inspections, fewer inspectors and an attitude that the "pilot knows best". Chalk's was a airframe failure.. As I suggested, look at recent (2000+) NTSB reports and satisfy yourself. PHC

Colby and Private Plane crashes  (by: M Baker  -   12/14/2008)

As I stated before, the FAA is not responsible for this crash. The most likely cause of this crash and most crashes is either pilot error, the cause of the vast majority of crashes, or the aircraft failure. Being that this aircraft has not been manufactured for more than 50 years or more and witnesses testifying the aircraft disentigrated in air, I would quess aircraft failure was the cause. Although aircraft failure is rather rare, in an aircraft this old the likelihood of failure increases. Currently in the pilot, insurance and aircraft manufacturer community, their is alot of debate on when an aircraft to old and is no longer safe to fly. The FAA is very strict on aircraft maintenance and inspections, but they or anyone can not always predict what may be fail or cause a failure. If the FAA inspected our automobiles like they do aircraft, I would quess 50% or more of our cars currently on the road would no longer be deemed safe. Although I respect your work with the FAA, water searches and rescues have very little to do with aircraft crashes in that it is after the fact and does not address the cause the crash. It would seem to me that the agency most responsible for rescues and searches would be more in the domain of the Coast Guard, and not the FAA.

FAA Dual Mission  (by: Preston H.Colby  -   12/14/2008)

I don't think the readers of this article understand that the FAA has two (2) incompatable statutory duties. They have to (a) Act to market US made aircraft and US carriers; and (b) Regulate (police) airways and aircraft for safety. The "marketing" duty has always won out over the "safety" duty. This comes up after every major aircrash in the NTSB's report after report. Congress just blows it off and people keep on loosing their lives in unsafe aircraft and unsafe airways. FAA staff and line people complain about this to anybody who will listen, but getting Congress to act is something else. Most crashes are NOT pilot error, read the NTSB reports and learn something about your world.

Colby  (by: Concerned 4 Our County  -   12/14/2008)

Preston- Even you have to understand that coming on here a few hours after a tragedy and making the statement like Mr. Tormey made is just in bad taste. I am not saying that he may or may not be correct, but it is in bad taste. As for praying for the families, are you void of compassion? I think not, but certainly the families can gain more comfort from a community expressing sympathy as opposed to a community that begins assigning blame.

Remembered...  (by: The Hudnall's  -   12/14/2008)

It never ceases to amaze me when trolls come out of their holes when tragedy strikes. Well, crawl back in your hole. The prayers and thoughts aren't for you, they are for the families, and if you do not like it, well...to bad. To the families that are having to deal with this tragic time, our heartfelt prayers and thoughts go out to you. - Duffer Loop resident

Comments on this article  (by: Preston H. Colby  -   12/14/2008)

Would somebody please tell me how "praying for the families" helps prevent future deaths from inadequate and substandard inspections by the FAA. I see the point Mr. Tormey makes and it's a good one. The FAA has operated on the "Tombstone Imperative" for far to long. Those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, the "Tombstone Imperative" means when enough people die from a common cause the FAA will START to determine why. They are the most reactive, anal retentative agency of government, I ever saw. I have worked with them since the early 1990's and wrote 98% of the FAA Advisory Circular 150-5210-13B,addressing Water Rescue for downed passenger aircraft... My colleagues and I teach this course across the USA, in England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and in Japan, and South East Asia, (mainly at the Singapore International Airport Training Academy)... PHC

private plane crash  (by: M Baker  -   12/13/2008)

Niether the FAA or Robert Sturgell is in anyway responsible for this aircraft accident. Commercial aircraft safety record is the highest it has ever been. As a pilot I know that flying in commercial aircraft is far more safer than traveling by automoble, but travel in small private aircraft it is about 14 time more dangerous. This is a statistic that is very rarely discussed. In other words, flying in small aircraft is about equally as dangerous as riding a motorcycle. Many insurance companies will refuse to give life insurance to low time pilots and many corporations and sport teams will not allow their executives or athelites to travel in small aircraft. Again as a pilot, I understand the risk but enjoy the hobby of flying so much I will accept the risk. I give my sincere thoughts to the families and we all know they will be sorely missed everyday, but I believe they were doing something they greatly enjoyed.

  (by: getlost  -   12/13/2008)

Dude, we don't need your airplane crash chasing services. Mr. Sturgell had nothing to do with this incident.

John J. Tormey III, Esq response  (by: Jeff  -   12/13/2008)

What in the H*LL are you babbling about? What does any of what you wrote have to do with the 2 poor souls that lost their lives today. Nothing. Just stick with praying for the families of this accident. God be with the families. RIP.

FAAilure Bobby Sturgell  (by: Plaintiff  -   12/13/2008)

Tell me, sir, what does your rant have to do with this tragic accident?

are you for real?  (by: Ray Napper  -   12/13/2008)

Two good men have died and you want to get on a political soapbox. Get a life and learn some manners.

  (by: Concerned 4 Our County  -   12/13/2008)

What does that have to do with the tragic death of these two men? My prayers go out to the families of the men killed in the plane crash.

FAAilure Bobby Sturgell  (by: John J. Tormey III, Esq.  -   12/13/2008)

Quiet Rockland is heartsick and prays for the families of the victims. Some Americans once trusted failed FAA Acting Administrator “Bobby” Sturgell to act like he was a regulator and prevent Americans from aviation harm. Then, after many months of FAA intimidation seeking to silence those desirous of telling the truth, the ram broke the dam. Whistle-blower courage and Congressional and FBI probe forced “Bobby” Sturgell and his FAA to admit that their malfeasance allowed hundreds of thousands and perhaps even millions of passengers to fly in cracked defective Southwest and other aircraft. Bobby Sturgell’s defense was denial – he continued to self-tout that he led the “Safest Period In Aviation History”. Yet approximately 3,500 souls and climbing have died on “Bobby” Sturgell’s own FAA “watch”. The NTSB statistics are here. Hold “Bobby” Sturgell accountable BEFORE he slithers out of office. http://indictsturgell.blogspot.com/2008/10/failed-faa-pilot-bobby-sturgell-racks.html http://www.bobbysturgell.net